Does Israel control American policy, or the other way round?

[luke]

if you change the question, then i agree - it does have to much influence over us foreign policy, the same as energy companys, arms manufactures and other big business interests ( on foreign and domestic policies )

really the problem has been the same since the start - government doesn't work for the people!

thanks for the link gg, will check it out, and yeah i totally agree the start of the solution is in the funding, if we can remove the need to rely on big business/the lobby for money, that removes a lot of the control they have over things. i don't really like the idea of state funding though, giving them taxpayers money so they can bombard us with propaganda doesn't quite seem the right solution definitely a limit, and a complete reworking of how things are done, how things are debated, more open and honest, what we need is a real democracy and real choice ... haha i'm dreaming now

[Mandy]

complete reworking of how things are done, how things are debated, more open and honest, what we need is a real democracy and real choice ... haha i'm dreaming now

"You are not the only one" (all rights to the trademark phrase acknowledged)

With the internet, and being able to put your message out via the web at low cost, that could be a GREAT equaliser. You don't need the cost of travelling round the country. The government should open up one of their existing web sites for debates and/or polls. We already see that on 10 Downing street site .. why not open it for all parties. A virtual debating hall.

Much cheaper, and more environmentally friendly that paper leaflets and mass postings. Reduces global warming even (if you believe it is accelerated by man's activities) !! Think how many trees/forests we would save.

[nekokate]

I hope the Refuseniks who vote "yes" aren't the first to have their travel documents suspended, and shipped off to those "civilian" detention centers (or secret prisons) round the world.

I thought you were the only person who's so far voted "yes". Don't you mean the refuseniks who vote "no"? In which case, I find it a little petty to be putting derogatory labels on the people here just because they don't buy your "Israel is the dog, America is the tail" stuff.

I'd love to see a post of yours where you just say what you think, instead of pointing us to reams and reams of essays and articles that, frankly, not many of us are going to have the time or patience to read through in their entirety, and are simply just other people's opinions, anyway.

[Mandy]

I thought you were the only person who's so far voted "yes". Don't you mean the refuseniks who vote "no"?

I meant it the way I said it, i.e. the Yes voters were the refusenik since it is the governments' "position" that Israel doesn't exert massive or excessive on US policy.

Note that if the question was worded "The Israel Lobby: Does it Have Too Much Influence on US Foreign Policy?", then Luke & Myself would have voted Yes .. i.e. the question in the poll, as I mentioned earlier, is ambiguous.

We are also yet to see how Karl votes.

[nekokate]

Oh, I get it. I apologise for misunderstanding. Refusenik kinda sounded like an insulting term...

[faceless]

Note that if the question was worded "The Israel Lobby: Does it Have Too Much Influence on US Foreign Policy?", then Luke & Myself would have voted Yes

You called this topic "Does Israel Control American Foreign Policy or the other way round" - if you wanted things to be less ambiguous then maybe you should have worded it differently in the first place.

[Mandy]

Oh, I get it. I apologise for misunderstanding. Refusenik kinda sounded like an insulting term...

No apologies needed. Hope this isn't too nerdy :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refusenik_(Soviet_Union)
"The term refusenik derived from the "refusal", handed down to a prospective emigrant from the Soviet authorities. Over time, "refusenik" has entered colloquial English usage for any type of protestor."

and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refusenik
"The word refusenik entered English language as a part of the Cold War lexicon to refer to those who were refused certain human rights, notably forbidden to emigrate. Later, its usage was appropriated to apply to those who refuse to participate in compulsory activities, such as army service, see conscientious objector."

I definitely count myself as a protestor. Indeed, morally, I have to protest our government's actions.

[faceless]

A U.S. military withdrawal from Iraq would be damaging to Israel, Dick Cheney said.

“We must consider, as well, just what a precipitous withdrawal would mean to our other efforts in the war on terror, to our interests in the broader Middle East, and to Israel,” the U.S. vice president said over the weekend to a Republican Jewish Coalition leadership gathering in Latana, Fla.

“Commentators enjoy pointing out mistakes through 20/20 hindsight. But the biggest mistake of all can be seen in advance: A sudden withdrawal of our coalition would dissipate much of the effort that has gone into fighting the global war on terror, and result in chaos and mounting danger. And for the sake of our own security, we will not stand by and let it happen,” Cheney said. He has a similar message earlier this month to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee’s annual policy forum.

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I just found this on some blog, but I've not checked it's authenticity. If it is true then it puts a slant on this debate for sure...

[Mandy]

Thanks Faceless. I did a google search, and the above does seem to be reported on a few "respectable" sites. So I believe it is true.

I believe (though I haven't found the exact recording) that George Galloway said on TalkSport that Israel was the only country to benefit from the Iraq war. That would be a further indication that Britain and US are following a policy which only benefited Israel (even after millions demonstrated BEFORE the war that it is a bad idea to invade .. I recall, I was one of them in 2003).

I have read the following, though can't attest to its accuracy (referring to British MPs) :
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In March 2003, about half of the MPs we voted for in 2001 just happened to be members of the various "Friends of Israel" parliamentary groupings. If any of these "Friends" voted AGAINST the invasion of Iraq, they are not known to me.

Those who worked most closely with William Hague on the 2001 election campaign were: the Australian-Asian, Amanda Platell; Ann Widdecombe and the ghastly Daniel Finkelstein.
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[major.tom]

I've added a poll so that people here can make their thoughts known.

Could you add a 3rd option? "Both"

I don't think it's an either/or question... They each exert influence on each other. Granted, Israel appears to benefit more from the relationship, but does that make them "in control" or is it a side-effect of their relative positions?

[Karl]

GG fan if you dont mind me asking which area are you based in?

[Colston]

Corporate America... where is the ownership? There is your policy driver.

[Mandy]

I've added a poll so that people here can make their thoughts known.

Could you add a 3rd option? "Both"

I don't think it's an either/or question... They each exert influence on each other. Granted, Israel appears to benefit more from the relationship, but does that make them "in control" or is it a side-effect of their relative positions?

major.tom, I assume you voted "NO" to the question asked about Control. If the question was worded "The Israel Lobby: Does it Have Too Much Influence on US Foreign Policy?", how would you hve voted ?

[Mandy]

GG fan if you dont mind me asking which area are you based in?

Please see my "PM" (personal message) to yourself [click messages on the title bar]. I am very happy to reply to PMs sent to me by clicking "PM" below my posting, or on my profile page https://couchtripper.com/forum2/profile. ... file&u=255

I just saw this new report [and NO apologies for the forum participants who just want my views. My views are nothing compared to a report by a Retired General, and a widely respected advisor to the U.S. military, based on interviews with dozens of officials during March, 2007] :

https://www.usnews.com/usnews/blogs/news ... iste_1.htm
"Military Advisor Issues Blistering Iraq Report"
"warning that the military is "in a position of strategic peril" while fighting a war which could weaken the U.S. for decades to come."

Now how is this good for America ? As George said, only Israel is benefiting from the War. You could argue Iran is as well, but that is because their turn to be "democratised/civilised/pacified/pro-Israelised .. call it what you like" is only coming up next.

These warnings from "officials" are serious because, by the mere fact that they speak out against their leaders actions, shows they are worried for the US itself. Whereas their leaders seem to mainly worry about how to keep the contributions flowing from the pro-Israeli Lobby, since these contributions keep them in power (over a nation being destroyed by traitorous leaders).

p.s. In the UK, we have seen similar warnings from the Army generals, i.e. warning that the UK military is making the problem worse. How is this good for England ? Though it is good for Israel.

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I came across another forum https://www.rys2sense.com/anti-neocons/v ... php?t=5656 which had the following posting relating to Israeli control of US policy (Karl will like this) :
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If they could lie about the War in Iraq and the Media would promote it and then help cover it up. Then these SAME people could be lying about 911 with the media covering it up as they cover up all things related to Israel.

We KNOW they lied about Iraq and we KNOW who made the fabrications. We KNOW what country they have dual citizenship with and which same country has been caught spying on the US (though unreported by the MSM) twice both before and after 911. We KNOW the Mossad lived next door to said hijackers and was caught filming and celebrating the WTC attacks. Connect the dots. 911, Iraq, and PNAC Where do all the Roads lead? No not the nwo/illuminati/pope/lizards it leads to ISRAEL. and ISAREL is going to start WWIII and attack Iran, Syria and Lebanon. If we don't do something.

You know WHAT happened on 911

Now learn WHO did it and how. And it is the same people who are behind the Iraq War and the coming attack on Iran.

<embed src='https://video.google.com/googleplayer.sw ... 3558108140' height="460" width="575">
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FYI, a frightening quote from an Israeli is seen in this article :
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/f ... 485947.stm
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Most Israelis I have talked to believe they will have to go to war again with Hezbollah, the Lebanese Shia movement that fought them to a standstill last summer.

They are worried that Arabs might lose their fear of the Israeli army if they do not.

And Hezbollah is backed by Iran, which many Israelis believe would like to eliminate their country.
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So Israel needs to fight, like a huge Bully, to ensure all it's enemies are FEARFUL of it. Now why is Israel reported to have 200+ WMDs .. certainly not to wipe out the Arabs (who may need only 5 or 10). Then we see this report :
https://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/isra ... ycaps.html
"'We Could Destroy All European Capitals'"

Wouldn't it just be ironic that Blair pays £75 BILLION to US, which would then flow one way or another Israel so that Israel can perfect the Nuclear missiles which can destroy all European Capitals (including London), but UK can't retaliate because of back-doors, lockouts, software "issues" which would prevent Britain EVER targeting Israel with Trident. Israel wouldn't care much if a US or European city was nuked, if it would advance IT'S agenda in the Middle East and beyond.

[faceless]

none of what you're saying suggests that Israel is leading American foreign policy though. There's little doubt that it is the cause of many problems, but to believe that America is treating it in any way other than as a useful state is pointless to me.

If you wanted to maintain your influence in a certain area and were rich enough to do so, what would you do?