The difference between Judaism and Zionism

Post by **faceless** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:39 pm

pirtybirdy · Post by **pirtybirdy** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:16 pm

Erm, I still haven't learned a thing. Can someone translate what just happened here? lol

Post by **Skylace** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:18 pm

The Jewish people, like all major religions, have the problems of how to interpret and what it means to be a part of that religion. Just like the Christians argue over what it means to be a Christian.
To me that is one of the biggest flaws of organized religions.
What the one man was saying was very peaceful. I know I don't agree with all of his religious views but I know that the way he was presenting it was in a sensible manner and I would rather have a discussion with him than the other guy on the street.

pirtybirdy · Post by **pirtybirdy** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:22 pm

Yeah, the guy shouting never made his point. Just shouted bullshit. I just saw him as an angry man with nothing good to bring into the discussion. Thanks Skylace.

Post by **faceless** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:26 pm

The major difference (as far as real world politics and peace are concerned) is that Zionists advocate the state of Israel while Judaism, supported by people such as the guy in the beard, actually says that that state should only be started when the Messiah arrives.

That is, of course, a very basic description...

nekokate · Post by **nekokate** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:49 pm

I don't understand why he says "after the so called Holocaust." I'm not sure any Jew would say that. Are you sure this is genuine? It was sort of like a scene from Curb Your Enthusiasm - and Larry David is the funniest Jew on TV!!

IRiSHMaFIA · Post by **IRiSHMaFIA** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:54 pm

I don't understand why the bald headed man was so upset, but then again I don't understand why people argue over religion or their depiction of it.

For those that take their religion seriously, all they really need to be concerned about is that they're conducting themselves within the confines of what they're religion dictates if that's the way they choose to live. They shouldn't worry about what anyone has to say about it because as long as they know what they're doing it shouldn't really matter.

The guy with the beard has every right....as anyone does to say what they feel and truly believe. The name calling and all the rest just creates more confusion and bitterness, and at the end of the day it doesn't matter to the average joe walkiing past hearing it because they won't understand or try to relate to the actual message either is trying to get across. Once the yelling and all that starts it takes away from it all.

IRiSHMaFIA · Post by **IRiSHMaFIA** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:58 pm

nekokate wrote:I don't understand why he says "after the so called Holocaust." I'm not sure any Jew would say that. Are you sure this is genuine? It was sort of like a scene from Curb Your Enthusiasm - and Larry David is the funniest Jew on TV!!

What you just mentioned struck me as quite an idiotic thing for that guy to say.

Post by **faceless** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:59 pm

nekokate wrote:I don't understand why he says "after the so called Holocaust." I'm not sure any Jew would say that. Are you sure this is genuine? It was sort of like a scene from Curb Your Enthusiasm - and Larry David is the funniest Jew on TV!!

I did wonder about that line myself, but I'm guessing it's something to do with the idea that some people are against the idea of calling it the Holocaust as that term particularly refers to Jews who were killed, ignoring the many hundreds of thousands of other humans who were murdered also. I think the demonstration is genuine and going by the fact the guy has a Palestinian flag I'd guess it's a pro-Palestine demonstration attended by these guys.

Post by **Skylace** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:02 pm

nekokate wrote:I don't understand why he says "after the so called Holocaust." I'm not sure any Jew would say that. Are you sure this is genuine? It was sort of like a scene from Curb Your Enthusiasm - and Larry David is the funniest Jew on TV!!

I missed that part. I'll have to watch again. I do know there were Jews in Tehran for the Holocaust Conference. At the conference there was denial to the Holocaust ever happening. However, these Jews were not denying the Holocaust, instead they were there opposing the Israeli government.

mickyv · Post by **mickyv** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:03 pm

Yes the “so called Holocaust” comment is very strange. I’m not sure if this could be connected with the very surprising & paradoxical recent research that has explored links & even collaboration between Zionism & anti-Semitism, research that seems to suggest that Zionists may have used/exaggerated or even deliberately fostered anti-Semitism in order to bring about the creation of the State of Israel. It seems that any price was worth paying as shown by the following quote;

Ben Gurion informed a meeting of Labor Zionists in Great Britain in 1938: "If I knew that it would be possible to save all the children in Germany by bringing them over to England and only half of them by transporting them to Eretz Israel, then I opt for the second alternative."

Galloway once had an anti-Zionist Jewish author as a guest on his radio show, and Jews against Zionism is a growing political force in Israel, not only for religious reasons, but also for moral.

There’s even a website called www.jewsagainstzionism.com but this seems to be based in the US rather than Israel.

nekokate · Post by **nekokate** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:03 pm

IRiSHMaFIA wrote:I don't understand why the bald headed man was so upset, but then again I don't understand why people argue over religion or their depiction of it.

Well, from what I understand (being very interested in Middle Eastern politics and having a good friend who is a Canadian Messianic Jew) is that the Hassidic Jew with the beard was speaking out against the Israeli government's persecution and continued occupation of what used to be Palestine, and the bald, angry guy was a typical, Zionist, rich professional Jew who believes fully in the superiority of the Israeli people and thinks that, as God's chosen people, Israel can do no wrong. That's a recipe for conflict if ever there was one!

IRiSHMaFIA wrote:For those that take their religion seriously, all they really need to be concerned about is that they're conducting themselves within the confines of what they're religion dictates if that's the way they choose to live. They shouldn't worry about what anyone has to say about it because as long as they know what they're doing it shouldn't really matter.

I agree wholeheartedly with you. The problem here is that a true Zionist Jew believes that he really is conducting himself as his religion dictates precisely by vehemently standing beside the Israeli government, so in his own mind, just allowing others to support the Palestinian people, support a two state solution, or support things like the returning of the Shebaa Farms to it's true owners would be going against what God wishes.

Brown Sauce · Post by **Brown Sauce** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:18 pm

If you have questions about the rights and wrongs of it all you might have a look here,

https://www.mideastweb.org/

and particularly,

https://www.mideastweb.org/zionism.htm

very interesting and about as unbiased as I can find - and I do look !!

Darren · Post by **Darren** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:15 pm

I recently read that over the years that George Bush speaks about giving the Palastinians a new settlement somewhere in Jordan but then the U.S blocks any hope of this actually happening, does anyone think that the Palastinians would want to move or that they want to stay where they are. Basically does anybody think that they would want to move or to continue their struggle against the occupation.

nar8or · Post by **nar8or** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:56 pm

An interesting thread.

One thing to remember is as well as not all Jews being Zionists not all Zionists are Jews - a lot of right wing christian fundamentalists are hard core Zionists - for a mixture of reasons including bringing the rapture closer.

Its always healthy to remember that there is more to world Jewry than Israel and even within Israel there is a huge diversitiy of opinions - remember about 8% of the Isrraeli population is Arab for instance.

I just hate the way some ZIonists hijack everything and say anybody who disaggrees with them is an anti semite.