Saudi Rape Victim Gets 200 Lashes and Jail

[luke]

I'm not talking politics with any of you folks. You have your own agenda, and you will blank out any other viewpoint. Let's just say I will never follow your idea of how things should be run in your country and you will never follow mine. I have to say, I've seen so many blatant lies and where some of you get your information is beyond me. Lots are out and out false. Again though, this topic isn't about politics so much as it is about a religion in which these particular people take the words in the book and use it to hurt other people, namely women. Women don't have rights in Saudia Arabia, and to say they do, shows that you have blinders on. If that's how you want to live through life, so be it.

i'm sorry but thats not true - you don't engage in dialog. time after time you've raised things in threads, people respond, ask questions - trying to engage in debate, you never reply

you just shut out or ignore anything that doesn't fit into your world view. i've asked you before to tell me why you think the way you do - you never reply

what you've said here is hardly fair when you're not even willing to engage in debate

i mean, point out the lies, point out the falsehoods - engage in debate pirty, you might teach us new things and us you - i think the one thing we all agree on is we want to see things better yeah?

[Mandy]

I agree with Luke. Pirty, you don't seem to want to want to engage in a debate, and you have taken a swipe at all of us here by saying we have our own agenda. What does that mean, and if we have an agenda, what do you have ?

Most people on this forum are happy to reference their sources. Why don't you do the same?

[Mandy]

I have to say, I've seen so many blatant lies and where some of you get your information is beyond me.

That's a simple on to answer. A starting point is the sticky topic at the top of this forum :
"News Sites"
https://couchtripper.com/forum2/viewtopic.php?t=2569

I will also mention :
https://whatreallyhappened.com
and
https://www.spiderednews.com

[luke]

i don't wanna go on at you pirty, but if you see me posting something you think is a lie - say so - i don't want to be posting stuff and building up views on stuff thats false.

what do you think my agenda is?

my only 'agenda' is trying to learn and understand things with an aim to making a more fair and equal world. the only way i can do that is through learning - if i'm learning from stuff thats false, i'm not learning - so point it out!

i mean, just point out some stuff, say in the recent cuba thread, where there were lies.

just because we'll engage in debate doesn't mean we can't get on in other threads pirty, me and marcella argue over things, we're still cool i've disagreed with lots of people on here, even mandy and neko, and they with me. i have differences of opinion on all sorts of things with my mates, and they're still my mates

[Marcella-FL]

I don't like extremism in any religion.

this hasn't got anything to do with religion - i don't think you'll find any religion that condones treating anyone like they do in saudi arabia

I agree. Indeed, in Islam women have as much, if not more, protection / rights than men -- and a lot more protection / rights than most women in the West.

Perhaps in the religious doctrine but evidence has shown not in practice, not in all Muslim-majority nations. It is such a complicated issue it really isn't a black and white debate. Interpretation of the Qur'an varies so greatly in the Muslim world. You have forward thinking, progressive interpretations and then you have strict, conservative interpretations and what's in between confuses things further.

As a westerner it is really hard to understand the difference in our cultures. I am reminded of the movie "A Stranger Among Us" with Melanie Griffith as a cop going undercover in a Hassidic community. Initially she too has problems with how they treat the women but later one of the women explains to her what it really means to THEM and though she may not jump on the bandwagon she sees it correctly for that community.

Years ago I worked for a warehouse club and was stationed in the "tobacco department." I had daily contact with HUNDREDS of convenience store / gas station owners ... Muslims, Jews, Christians, old school, modern, Israeli, Palestinian ... it was FASCINATING to watch them interact.

I cannot say that Islam supports the subjugation of women but I will say that it appears that some "Islamist" governments do.

[Mandy]

I agree. Indeed, in Islam women have as much, if not more, protection / rights than men -- and a lot more protection / rights than most women in the West.

Perhaps in the religious doctrine but evidence has shown not in practice, not in all Muslim-majority nations. It is such a complicated issue it really isn't a black and white debate. Interpretation of the Qur'an varies so greatly in the Muslim world. You have forward thinking, progressive interpretations and then you have strict, conservative interpretations and what's in between confuses things further.

As a westerner it is really hard to understand the difference in our cultures. I am reminded of the movie "A Stranger Among Us" with Melanie Griffith as a cop going undercover in a Hassidic community. Initially she too has problems with how they treat the women but later one of the women explains to her what it really means to THEM and though she may not jump on the bandwagon she sees it correctly for that community.

Years ago I worked for a warehouse club and was stationed in the "tobacco department." I had daily contact with HUNDREDS of convenience store / gas station owners ... Muslims, Jews, Christians, old school, modern, Israeli, Palestinian ... it was FASCINATING to watch them interact.

I cannot say that Islam supports the subjugation of women but I will say that it appears that some "Islamist" governments do.

The problem is these same "Islamist" governments tend to be Western puppets (or whose origins have sponsorship, training, financing etc. by Western intelligence agencies), and that includes the Taleban in Afghanistan.

Look at Iran, which threw off the shackles of the Shah of Iran, and of their democratically elected governments being overthrown, and of being invaded by Iraq (on the West's approval and financing). They are closer to true Islam that Saudi Arabia. The Iranian women have great freedom.

Note the freedom of women in places like the Abu Dhabi.

[Marcella-FL]

I don't want to discuss politics either because it is obvious we have very strong and differing opinions - not a problem - I just don't get into those fights.

I think the view that some of you have an agenda is because much of what is posted and brought up is about how the US and UK are screwing up the planet. (Ok so Canada got the taser thread but come on!) There are rarely articles bringing the other major countries to task. I am not in denial about how much Bush sucks. I hate him. (If I could have voted for Satan to guaranty he would have been elected I would have!) I would just love to see some threads about Germany, France, Italy, Russia, Japan, China ... are they helping or hurting? Heck let's get into a debate over Palau! That would be something different!

Many of the news sources you reference have a definite "flavor" to them. I have no problem with that. I realize that they represent one view of the issue and if I am intelligent I do not take any one view as the gospel. Every news outlet has an agenda and reports the news accordingly. The intelligent among us can see through the propaganda and try to get through the meat of the story.

I don't know if I would say there were LIES thrown about but I think we are all maybe a little guilty of believing what we want to believe.

Luke - I think of Cuba and Venezuela here. Not an attack on you - for every proponent of their methodology and views there are at least as many opponents. For every Cuban citizen who claims Father Fidel is a saviour there are Cuban ex-pats who will scream about the atrocities. I have never been to Cuba so I don't know the "truth" but I do not discount either view. I guess I am just excrutiatingly middle of the road.

[Marcella-FL]

Mandy, Again not trying to pick a fight but I am curious have you visited any of these nations? Have you lived among them? I have not so I cannot make an accurate judgement regarding the treatment of women.

[faceless]

If america and Britain weren't invading sovereign countries in order to force their culture on them then I for one wouldn't care less. That's the difference as I see it. You don't hear of the Chinese or Japanese trying to impose their form of government on countries thousands of miles away... not even the French are that bad! haha

anyway, back to Saudi - their government are fascists and abhorrent, not Islamic.

[Skylace]

I'll just go back to what I said earlier, my female cousin just moved to Jeddah and she isn't even supposed to smile at men in public because it is considered a come on and she can get in trouble for it. That's just flat out wrong.
There is something wrong with that society if you aren't allowed to smile at the opposite sex without it being considered a sexual come on.

[Mandy]

Mandy, Again not trying to pick a fight but I am curious have you visited any of these nations? Have you lived among them? I have not so I cannot make an accurate judgement regarding the treatment of women.

I can say I have : I also have MANY female (and male) friends who live, work in, or are from, the Middle East (including Iran) - including Christian and Muslim.

I have also personally travelled a lot round the world (in younger years), and have a wide range of friends from pretty well all regions of the world.

I am NOT defending Saudi Arabia .. indeed, I repeatedly said it is a puppet government full of hypocrites.

[luke]

I think the view that some of you have an agenda is because much of what is posted and brought up is about how the US and UK are screwing up the planet. (Ok so Canada got the taser thread but come on!) There are rarely articles bringing the other major countries to task. I am not in denial about how much Bush sucks. I hate him. (If I could have voted for Satan to guaranty he would have been elected I would have!) I would just love to see some threads about Germany, France, Italy, Russia, Japan, China ... are they helping or hurting? Heck let's get into a debate over Palau! That would be something different!

but we talk about britain and america as most of us are from those countries, i can't do anything about the crimes say russia commits - i don't live there, but in a democracy i should be able to have an effect on the crimes my government commit. its just unfortunate that brtain and america are causing most of the trouble. i mean take the countries you bring up, germany, france, italy, russia, japan, china - what are any of them doing?! they were all against the invasion of iraq. they all vote against the us embargo of cuba, they all voted for the kyoto treaty ( as did britain ), they all vote for an end to the illegal occupation of palestine and for israel to move back into its borders, they are all against a military attack on iran, they all support venezuelas democratillay elected president - its always britain and america thats messing around with things, and as britain has this so called 'special relationship' with america, it follows that i'd follow the actions of america - plus with it being the worlds only hyper power.

Luke - I think of Cuba and Venezuela here. Not an attack on you - for every proponent of their methodology and views there are at least as many opponents. For every Cuban citizen who claims Father Fidel is a saviour there are Cuban ex-pats who will scream about the atrocities. I have never been to Cuba so I don't know the "truth" but I do not discount either view. I guess I am just excrutiatingly middle of the road.

yeah i agree with you, and everyone here is entitled to post up their points of view - and i'd love them all to, we'd have a really healthy debate, challenging each others views and that could only help all of us get to the truth. its just pirty comes along, says you're all lying, then goes off and doesn't engage. how is anything supposed to progress with that attitude? i mean at least you engage and we challenge each others views and learn from it ( i've learnt stuff from you, not least the plural of country ) . pirtys just a closed mind. i mean i'd have loved it if she'd have asked these questions, if she'd had posted some links to say - looks this is why castro isn't nice to his people, this is why we should attack iran, why we were right to have invaded iraq, why we should support saudi arabia - but she doesn't.

i never say i'm always definitely right, i can only go on what i've read and evaluate it against the evidence - if people have stuff to the contrary - please please post it!

[Marcella-FL]

Have you ever heard Mark Knopfler's "Don't Crash the Ambulance"? It is one of my faves. Check it out if you haven't. (or at least google the lyrics - I don't want to eat up space by posting it here)

[Skylace]

I think Pirty is just someone who doesn't enjoy debating and arguing. Not everyone like's it or is up for it. It doesn't always mean they're closed minded. I know plenty of people who just don't want to deal with debates and arguments.

There are some things I will never debate or argue, pure and simple. I take those things far to personal and it would not be beneficial to me or anyone to get into any type of conversation about it.

As for getting to the truth, we never will, because in my opinion, there is no such thing as truth but the one you make for yourself and that truth changes for everyone. The world will never see eye to eye on what the "truth" is.

The world is full of people who want to debate and those who don't. Let each do as they please.

[faceless]

Pirty, I just read back on what you wrote. How you can accuse anyone of being biased when you have a link to that fucker Hannity in your profile is so far beyond me that even post-ironic sarcasm doesn't reach it!